Fronarth Lady (°1960)

[ysewynwelshcobs]

Does anybody have a photo of "Fronarth Lady" born in 1960.

The reason why I asking this, is because www.allbreedpedigree.com says she was GREY.

Knowing something about color genetics, this is impossible because neither of her parents where grey and none of her progeny (as far as I know) is grey.
So I would like to find out, what color she really was.

[september]

Hello,I know nothing about colour genetics but could she have been born roan, then turned grey with age like Curtis-mill Flyer,or did she not have the genetics to be roan? just a throught

[ysewynwelshcobs]

Thanks for the suggestion september, but roan is also dominant. So, that's not possible either.
I simply think they made a mistake on www.allbreedpedigree.com That's why I would like to have a picture of her.

[ysewynwelshcobs]

I've actualy been thinking about it a bit more and I do think September might be right about the grey.
Her dame Brynarth Pride was - said to be - bay(dark). But Brynarth Pride's mother (Blaneawun Flora) and her mother ( Penuwch Roanie Briton) were roan. So, I think Brynarth Pride was probably a roan-bay(dark), but had only a little white hairs. Then she could have passed it on to her daugther Fronarth Lady... and then she was roan instead of grey.
Since roan is dominant, the theory that one of her parents has to be roan, could be right. What her progeny is concerned... it is very possible that - since she wouldn't have been homozygote roan - she has passed on the gene to her progeny.

[rosiehannah]

my mums old mare had a fair bit of Fronarth in her, she was just a plain bay though lol

[rhi]

Hey gypsy, my mares have a lot or Fronarth in aswell, my mare is out of Llangattock Gem who is out of Fronarth Lady Jane who is out of Fronarth Brehines who is the mother of Fronarth Bonedigges who won the Royal Welsh a few years back

[ysewynwelshcobs]

Hi
@gypsy : I know, she's registered as grey. She's also in my mare's pasport (she's the dame of the dame of my mare's dame) and inthere she's also registered as grey.
But a grey needs to have a least one grey parent and that isn't the cdase.
So If somebody can help me with a picture. I would definetely like to find out this.

[rosiehannah]

hey,

have you tried to contact the Fronarth Stud? they may be able to help you and give you a picture of her.

hannah

[ysewynwelshcobs]

Good idea Rosiehanah. Why didn't I think about this ?
I'll give it a try and if I get a reply, I will post the info here.

[ysewynwelshcobs]

Yes G.R. there still is a possibility that it was just a kind of 'freak' gene, but before I believe that, I like to try and find out as much as possible to see if there is not an explanation.
This color genetics are something that really intriguise me.
A while ago I found something impossible as well... a bay mare and a palomino stallion, that result in a cremello. This is impossible, because to get a double diluted color both parents should carry the cream gene. After going through the pedigrees of both parents, I found out that the mare was not bay, but 'smoky black'. Her owner was quite surprised, but indeed it explained why the mare was born pitch black.
Things like this intriguise me and therefore, I would like to find out about Fronarth Lady as well.
What your coloured horse is concerned... I don't know anything about coloured genes yet, but now your tempting me to try to find out about this... Is it possible that it was a 'white-born' (this is not the same as grey) ? Because that can happen spontaneously. I guess, I'll have to try and found out more about coloureds now

[ysewynwelshcobs]

Hi G.R.,
To be HOMOZYGOUS for something, a horse has to carry the gene twice. In other words both parents should carry the gene as well and because the tabiona pattern is dominant, this means that both parents would be tabiona as well.
You say, she's been DNA-tested and she's homozygous for the coloured gene. Do you mean the tabiona-pattern or to the OVERO-pattern ?
Because the OVERO-pattern has another way of showing. From what I see from the pics, she could be an 'overo sabino'. This would still mean that both her parents carry that gene, but the overo-pattern (and especialy the sabino) doesn't always show very clear. Sometimes the overo sabino pattern shows very clearly, other times it can only be a blaze or something like that.
I am far from an expert on coloured horses, but from what I could find in my books about colour genetics and on the internet, it might be this.
Btw, you probably know, but it seams to be dangerous to use parents that are both homozygous for a certain pattern (I am not sure anymore which one), because some of the combinations can be lethal.
Also... you say she has white on her tail to... That could point into the direction of 'rabicano'... that's another pattern on which scientist do not agree yet, whether it is dominant or recessive.
All very interisting these color genetics... but I think I'll stick to the plain and dilutting colors at the moment, because these piebald, pinto's, appalloosa-paterns seem so complicated to me and they're not allowed or common in the welsh cob anyway.

[september]

I once tried reading about colour genetics but got confessed .
ysewynwelshcobs -your book sounds good.
what classes as sabino? because Lady my chestnut possibly welsh pony was 3 white leg markings,blaze and a white chin spot and lots of white hairs in her coat ,I wondered if she was a sabino or carried the gene.

[ysewynwelshcobs]

Hi September,
It's sometimes hard to tell from what you see what color a pony/horse has/carries.
The discribtion for a overo sabino is :
<<SABINO OVERO. This type is characterized by unsharp and irregularly defined white 'spots/stains' or bigger markings/patches. The extremes in color with sabino give an enormous difference. Sometimes you have an almost white horse with some shimmery coloured patches, and the other hand, there are almost plain horses with only a few white hairs forming a spot the size of a coin. Sometimes it can be easily confused with roan as well.>>
I hope this makes any sence, because I tried to translate the dutch text into english.
From how you describe Lady, she could be a sabino yes, but you can only be sure if you have her DNA-tested.

Regards,
Stefan.

P.S. Note to adminstrators.
Maybe we should transfer/continue these 'color genetics' discussions into a seperate thread.

[september]

Wow this is interesting
G.R. if you put your mare to a tobiano stallion what colour will you get and what stallion are you going to use? Sorry i'm just being nosey ;D
That lethal white sound terrible

[september]

thanks for that :)I haven't got my brainey head on,think i'll have to read it afew times
I do like the tobiano patterned coloureds better,much prettier and your flash I could look at piccies of him all day ;D
I never new DNA tests were so easy